First off, if this book has helped you, that's genuinely wonderful. I do really like how compassionate and optimistic it is. I don't want to discount anyone's experiences, because often what people need is different.
However, I have heard this touted as one of the "actually good" self help books, an alternative to the grifters and false promises. I don't think the author is a grifter, I don't know anything about him, but I don't think this book is an exception to the issues with self-help.
My problem is that it's so individualistic. It perpetuates this idea that happiness is something you create for yourself independent of anyone else, and that what people think of you doesn't matter at all. This is quite a common idea in modern culture but it goes against our nature as social creatures. The book feels like it's against the very idea of a social contract, the concept that we all owe things to other. (also, seems kind of dubious that ancient Toltec wisdom just happens to align with modern western individualist values)
Like take this quote from the chapter "don't take anything personally": "You may even tell me, 'Miguel, what you are saying is hurting me.' But it is not what I am saying that is hurting you; it is that you have wounds that I touch by what I have said. You are hurting yourself." But what if they are pointing out something that you legitimately need to work on? This seems antithetical to self-improvement. Especially because the author spent a whole chapter talking about how harmful our words can be to others. Sure, often people's criticism can come from their own personal issues, but we shouldn't always assume that.
I think that the idea of self-improvement as an independent mission is inherently misguided. We can't do anything without other people. Maybe the agreements we make should be about compassion and community.
I would genuinely really like to hear people's thoughts on this, and if they agree or disagree. (Also, if you know any self help books that are more focused on community, feel free to recommend them!)
by moss42069
17 Comments
Hey man TLDR are very well appreciated in Reddit
It’s basically cognitive therapy taught as a metaphor. I think of this book as a good introduction to how we relate to our thoughts.
Read the happiness trap and see if those metaphors land better for you or check out stoicism. None of these approaches negate compassion, empathy or community.
That said, this stuff isn’t for everyone and there is plenty of other stuff out there.
There may be logical inconsistencies, this isn’t Devine, but there is a lot of value to the underlying concepts for some folks.
I fully agree with every point you made. My friend who told me that that book changed her life is also a friend who only thinks about herself, very individualistic has no concept of what it’s like to be a disabled person in this world, or to be poor, etc. etc. So we aren’t really very good friends, but we’re part of a small group together so I call her one. I read the book so I can see if she and I could have a conversation about it… But I knew she would resist everything I said. So thanks for your post, I really agree with it. But I’m not saying that everybody who loves this book is selfish.
I cannot for the life of me understand what makes this book special
You missed the perfect opportunity to caption it: my disagreements with the four agreements
Dont make me tap the sign>
*Self helps books arent mean to be universal solutions for problems but they are just wide guides that have certain niches in a well know profitable market.*
[removed]
I detest self-help books and don’t know anything about this one, but sounds like it’s a long-winded version of “you can’t control other people’s actions but you can control how you react”. For a lot of us, learning how to change the way we react to negative experiences takes time and focus. That focus needs to be on yourself in order to effect any change. It doesn’t preclude community or empathy, and ultimately, if you can learn to process your negative emotions in a more healthy way, it will make you a more empathetic and positive member of your community.
Self-help is mostly bullshit sold to people who want to feel better about themselves because they are selfish. You can go too far with giving to others just as you can with being selfish: finding a balance is an individual pursuit that can change from day to day, but most people who want value out of self-help are probably too focused on themselves and their own struggles. Volunteering is a much more profitable way to engage in self-acceptance and build self-esteem, and it’s less boring than navel-gazing endlessly.
There’s a Podcast called If Books Could Kill that basically dismantles self help books. This one isn’t on their list but they have things like The Secret, Atomic Habits, and many others. I only listened to a few episodes because they are all sorta the same – kind of like the self help books they discuss.
While I’ve read a few over my lifetime, I’ve never come away feeling like was better off after.
Does your happiness exist outside of yourself? Do your pains exist outside of yourself? When someone says something that hurts you, where does the hurt actually come from? If they said the same thing in a language you didn’t understand, would it hurt you the same?
I haven’t read the book, but it sounds like he is speaking fundamentally about how these things work. What other people think and say of us does matter but what other people think and say of us cannot create our response. We create our response. A natural response to being hit in the face is anger and retaliation, but we can choose to respond differently if we understand that our retaliation will likely bring further retaliation. Choosing happiness is something only you can do. That choice isn’t “independent” of everything else, it’s actually quite integrated, because you understand the value in choosing happiness despite the unavoidable pain of life. It’s typically better for you AND better for everyone around you.
You say we can’t do anything without other people and that is certainly true, none of us would be here if we didn’t have people to care for us as we grow up, but it is also true that there are things that other people cannot do for you. If you are depressed, no one can reach inside of you and take out the depression. If you see something that makes you happy, you assume it was that thing that made you happy. The truth is that the ability to be happy always existed inside of you and it was the “recognition” of that thing that brought out the happiness that already existed.
read Be Here Now by Ram Dass instead.
There’s an agreement right there. “We can’t do anything without other people”🤔
When I found the four agreements I was at a house party and had found myself in the living room beside the stereo that was on full blast. For a moment no one else was in the room and I sat down and on the couch was this book. I wasn’t currently preoccupied so out of curiosity I decided to start reading it until someone else came in the room. Well I can’t remember when someone came in the room because I couldn’t stop reading I read the first 30 pages or so right then and there.
After finding myself a copy of the book and reading it, I went online and ordered a copy of every book Don Miguel has written relating to the 4 agreements. As well as multiple copies of my favourites of his (the voice of knowledge, the mastery of love)(both excellent). This book quickly became my bible and I do my best to live by it every day. Ive learned the hard way that trying to share it with people by persuading them doesn’t work. For this book to have an effect on someone they have to be ready for it or at least in a place in their life where they’ll be welcoming it’s words rather than nit picking them. And not without a grain or 2 of salt as always, as well as a persons own power of discernment. Take from it what you want, it is not a book of law nor are its techniques absolute and should not be taken that way. (Unless it works for you that way? 🤷🏼♂️ you do you 👍🏼)
Regardless, I am 100 thousand percent on board with everything in these books. It is my wish that I could share with everyone around me what I’ve gained from this book. So since first reading the book I’ve probably ordered around 40 copies of the original 4 agreements, and after almost always ultimately talking about it with anyone willing to listen (doing my best not to overbear), I offer a copy of it to them if they seem even mildly interested. And if I don’t have anymore I will buy them. To me this book is like religion without the religion. It’s just pure raw truths. But don’t take my word for it, see for yourself if youve read this far in my post maybe you’ll like it. It’s not wise to ignorantly take another’s words for granted without seeing for yourself.
Also sneak peak at his second book The Fifth Agreement: “Be skeptical, but learn to listen”
To the person who started this post, I am more than happy and open to talk about anything regarding this book with you. Anytime
Edit, forgot to add this quote one of my favs.
(I’m not religious btw)
“Trust in god but tie up your camels”
✌🏼
As a Four Agreements evangelist that is currently reading The Fifth Agreement, I can say that the follow up book may make clear some of what you obviously missed in the first book’s intention.
The language you are using here is based on your own dream. Our entire society and individual realities are our own dreams. Your dream is not my dream. Something that offends you that I don’t feel offensive by doing, is not something I will feel inclined to change, because I will not let you impose your dream on me anymore than you should let me impose my dream on you. The first book makes your dream feel like a force field and in the quote you made, is offering the idea that allowing daggers to enter your force field is your choice. You are making your force field smaller so the daggers come too close. Instead, protect your energy by expanding your force field with these four agreements: 1234.
But The Fifth Agreement goes a step further to explain that really, the issue is the whole concept of seeking perfection. Your entire post is couched in the idea that according to your dream, you believe others should strive to be better today than yesterday, and agreement number four is antithetical to that because one’s best changes moment to moment, and the only person deciding what is “better” should be one’s own self.
Likewise the Fifth goes into the power of language. Words can be harmful to others because the ones you’re talking about using, are ones that attempt to impose your dream on another—NOT open you both to reality. The reality is that everything and everyone, exactly as they are, are perfect. Our own attempts to force change on and adjudicate others through our language is where we fail as a society. Here is a list of all the language just in your post that is antithetical to The Truth and your own personal freedom:
* individualistic (and the idea that individualism is bad)
* our nature (we have been socialized with language and society to have this nature; it is bred, not born)
* social contracts (and the idea that social contracts are good)
* need to [work on] (and the idea the your idea of what others needs is the only true idea)
* self-improvement (and the idea that self-improvement is good)
The Fifth hits different. I would really encourage you to check it out.
Im so glad I found this thread. I feel like I could’ve written the OP because this is how I have felt for years. The book isn’t based on how humans actually work. Some things are personal. And by saying don’t take anything personally, you are sending a message that is not okay to feel. Instead, it’s better to be able to manage those feelings as they come up
If i get offended by an interaction i have with someone or what someone says to me directly then i need to look inward and ask myself why? Maybe im being bullied and the bully is making fun of me and projecting what would hurt them onto me i can demonize this person and label them an enemy by doing that i give them power and see them through one interaction through my own perspective which is surface level bc i dont know them i can assume that they are evil and bad in every way but that is not true they are probably hurting in ways that i have never faced. I think the four agreements go deeper than how to conduct yourself it deepens ones perspective on themselves and outside of themselves. If what offends is something you struggle with then you know it’s something that needs to be looked at even more closely. If you do not take something personally then you can be compassionate to someone who treats you badly because you know its not you that causes them to hurt.