Looking for a book to explain how we can live in rules and morals based societies without religion. Every time ANY social or moral issue comes up, he comes back to the lack of religion as a unifying foundation and prescriptive force. He was raised in a religious family but is agnostic or even atheist, but clearly it still shapes his world view. I doubt I’ll get him to change, but I want to make sure I have good arguments at least.
I’d take history, anthropology/sociology, philosophy, even fiction if it makes a clear point. Thanks!
by resolutelyperhaps
17 Comments
Why do you want to change his opinion at all? Unless he is proselytizing and trying to convert you, you should leave him alone
How to be perfect by schur
*The Elements of Moral Philosophy* by James Rachels. Looks like it’s at it’s 10th edition and in it chapter 4 has an entire section called “Does Morality Depend on Religion?”
It’s a great text, I used it in a philosophy course I took some years back. I really recommend it!
Oh man I have a guy I work with like this. We kept having actually productive talks about some issues but one day the morals need religion thing comes up. and I was like, so wait do you think my moral arguments have any validity at all, if they don’t come from the Bible. He basically said no. Any morals I’ve developed from life experience and critical thinking, he basically scoffs and and doesn’t even consider. That was the last time I talked to him about anything not involving work or simple topics. I suggest you do the same. That belief is a profound lack of respect and awareness for others and undermines any and all intellectual conversation.
Ethical Intuitionism by Michael Huemer
Lila, Or Inquiry Into Morals has interesting things to say about the evolution of morals and the role of religion
Educated to me shows why ‘Religion’ is used as a cloak to do completely unethical things. It can be the antithesis of morality.
The notion that morality requires religion is utterly laughable.
It may sound goofy but *Good Omens*. Terry Pratchett is a master at weaving humor into really complex social/ethical issues. The whole premise of the book is basically that the rules and expectations of religion bog us down so much we forget all we have to do to be “good” is do our best to take care of one another. I regularly list it among the works foundational to my worldview.
If you don’t mind annoying him, definitely Nietzsche hahaha.
As an atheist, I beg you not to try to tell people they don’t need religion. Look around you. Even with religion, many people are out of control. They don’t care about others. They’re willing to cut SNAP at the last minute and didn’t care if people live or die.
We need religion. As a society we’re not ready to live without religion. Some people are a lot horrible than you think and the fear of god is the only thing that holds them back.
How to be Perfect, by Michael Schur. And maybe just watch The Good Place with your friend, or have them watch it.
The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris is literally about that exact subject. Every chapter presents a way we can use science to measure/ assess what’s moral.
Sense and Goodness without God by Dr. Richard Carrier
“The Righteous Mind” by Jonathan Haidt is a good book on the psychology and science behind morality.
Personally, as an atheist, I believe morality is subjective. You don’t need religion to have morality, but you do need some kind of underlying belief system, even if it’s one you make up yourself.
Some atheists like Sam Harris have tried to argue that science can give us morality (I disagree), but he’s really bad at philosophy and his arguments are weak, so I wouldn’t recommend reading him on that subject.
Books? How about contemporary American politics?
Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes. Religion is an aside in his philosophy, it’s the subsuming of individuals (man in the state of nature) into the commonwealth that is the crux. The idea is that people will allow for constraints on their freedom to act in whatever way they wish at all times to build a commonwealth and consent to be governed by it, in order to avoid constant war and fear of death found in the state of nature. He has separate thoughts about religion that are included but the gist is that civil law is more important.
How deep does your friend want to go? If the friend doesn’t care no book will really work. If the friend is genuinely looking for answers, here are two I would recommend in a heart beat:
*Conscience: the origins of moral intuition* by Patricia Churchland. It’s short and easy to read. The gist is that most of what we call “morality” is biological selection among social animals. It’s a naturalistic, biological perspective. A bit dry, but she has some interesting stories and research examples. This is my #1 book for someone who says “how can we have objective morality with God”. Basically, we evolved and select for traits that are beneficial to a social animal like humans, and we can see this in other animals.
*The Moral Landscape* by Sam Harris. This is a more philosophical look at morality. The perspective would be something like “objective morality can be determined through science”. I don’t agree with him 100% but this is a a really influential and interesting take on morality.
From there the sky is the limit when it comes to the biology and philosophy or morality. But, nobody changes until they are ready to change. So if your just trying to shove your perspective down your friend’s throat these won’t work. I’d highly recommend them both to you though…you know, since this is about book recommendations not morality per se.